Just about anyone who has a student in school knows there are school counselors, but many of us don’t have any idea what they do. We know they provide guidance and assistance with college and career planning, but that’s just one part of the career that also includes social and emotional counseling and addressing academic needs – and for a national average of 250-400 students per counselor! With that much to do, for that many students, counselors need all of the help they can get. Parents who understand the work of the school counselor may be better able to partner with their student’s counselor to support their student. Lynn and Vicki spoke with Patrick O’Connor, author of College Is Yours and past president of the National Association for College Admission Counseling to learn more about what counselors do and how students and parents can make the most of this important relationship.

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In this episode we were able to talk with Patrick O’Connor who has served as high school counselor and is an expert in the field of counseling. We talked about Patrick’s new book  College Counseling Advice for Those Who Give College Counseling Advice and also focused on how parents can partner with their student’s counselor to support their student. Patrick also shared that he has a book for parents as well – College Is Yours 3 is written to help parents know what they need to know.

School counseling involves a lot, but is primarily focused on three things – social and emotional growth, academic progress within the school, and post-secondary planning. It’s a big job description! Training and certification can vary greatly from state to state and it’s not necessary to be a teacher before you become a counselor. Counselors generally work with another counselor for many hours of training before they become a counselor.

The national average number of students per counselor – 450 students to 1 counselor, but some states have a higher ratio. Counselors are faced with making decisions about how to get the work all done – often through group programs and programs for parents to know how to help their students.

Patrick’s first piece of advice for students to make the most of their counselor was to read that first piece of communication that comes out from your counselor at the beginning of the year. This will help you understand what services the counselor provides and the best way to contact the counselor.

We heard a message we’ve heard many times before – “Let the student drive the bus!”  Patrick reminded us how important it is not to underestimate our students. Parents know their student best, but it’s important to keep this goal in mind.

We loved the idea that the key to being college ready (so important!) is to make the most out of high school. It’s important for the first year or so of high school just to focus on high school and not start focusing on college too early. Learning the skills to be a successful college student happens during high school through the counseling curriculum. Counselors prepare activities to get students ready for the college admission process.

Patrick suggested the power of visiting college campuses as a way to explore the college option. College isn’t for everyone, but seeing first-hand what college is all about can help students think more about their future.

Parents have three main roles in working with the high school counselor – make sure you are reviewing the communications that come from the school counselor, if you see anything in your child’s behavior that seems concerning consider communicating that to the counselor, be the partner when it’s time for college visits, conversations about paying for college.

Patrick shared information about a free college counseling seminar designed to help seniors investigate colleges, build a college list, apply for admission, financial aid and scholarships, and begin the transition to college during the school day. Check out Senior College Seminar.

Patrick also recommended a good book by Rick Clark, Director of Admission at Georgia Tech – The Truth About College Admission

Also – Guiding the Gifted Child: A Practical Source for Parents and Teachers by James T. Webb (This one may be out of print, so try your library.)

Finally, Patrick recommended a column he wrote that is a quick read but a great guide for parents: College Counseling in Under 500 Words 

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Transcript:

Announcer: 0:10

Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast. Whether your child is just beginning the college admission process or is already in college, this podcast is for you. You’ll find food for thought and information about college and about navigating that delicate balance of guidance, involvement and knowing when to get out of the way. Join your hosts, Vicki Nelson and Lynn Abrahams, as they share support and a celebration of the amazing experience of having a child in college.

Vicki Nelson: 0:47

Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast. This is the podcast where we talk about just about anything that has to do with parenting a college student or parenting a high school student that is thinking about college and getting ready for college, and sometimes we even touch on students who have graduated from college and looking at their next steps. My name is Vicki Nelson. I am one of the co-hosts of this podcast and I come to this as a college professor who works with students every day and I see what goes on with them, but also as a parent who has sent three daughters to college and they have come out the other side, and I am here today with my co-host and also with a guest. So, Lynn, I’m going to let you introduce yourself first.

Lynn Abrahams: 1:37

Hi everyone. My name is Lynn Abrahams and I also come to this both professionally and personally. Professionally, I am a learning disability specialist. I work with college students and their families and have done that my entire career. But I’m also a mom of two sons who have gone through college or in and out and breaks and back, and you know the route and we’ve lived to tell the story. So I come to this, you know, as a parent and as a professional.

Vicki Nelson: 2:17

So that’s who we are and our background, but for today that matters a whole lot less than the person that we are going to be talking to, and this is someone that I have been saying for several years that we needed to get on the podcast. So we’re very excited that this could happen today. We are here today with Patrick O’Connor. We’re very excited to have him with us.

Vicki Nelson: 2:39

A college counselor for 40 years, Professor O’Connor is past president of the National Association for College Admission Counseling and served as the inaugural school counselor ambassador fellow with the US Department of Education. He is a speaker on all kinds of issues related to college admissions and education and teaches a college counseling course to both new counselors and experienced counselors. He also presents workshops to students, parents and educators and has published five books on counseling. He writes a weekly column on counseling that appears in High School Counselor Week and his new book, college Counseling Advice for School Counselors, College Counseling Advice for those Giving College Counseling Advice, was just published in July of 2024. And he will correct me on anything I got wrong there. So we’re going to give him an opportunity to introduce himself and correct me, and maybe, Patrick, if you could talk a little bit about what brought you to this field of college counseling.

Patrick O’Connor: 3:59

Sure, Vicki and Lynn, thank you so much for the opportunity to chat with you and your listeners today. I really appreciate it. It’s always great to talk with parents and this is an exciting time of year to do that work, as everybody starts to get ready to get back to school. Yeah, so you know everything you said is spot on. And you know, primarily I actually started in this work because I was the first in my family to graduate from college and, you know, was born and raised in northwest Detroit in a neighborhood where that was, you know, the big goal. The big goal was to own your own house and make sure your kids went to college.

Patrick O’Connor: 4:40

And you know, for all the great opportunities I’ve had, the work that still drives me on a daily basis is thinking about how to help the kid who’s living in my bedroom back in northwest Detroit. To make that dream a possibility. That’s kind of been the dream that’s driving all the work that I’ve done, including the books and in addition to the new book for school counselors, there’s also a book for parents and students out there called College is Yours 3, published a year ago but still, I think, very relevant for folks who are looking for a quick reference. The chapters are a whopping two pages long each, so I didn’t want to bore you to death. I wanted to tell you what you needed to know, and, and so that’s available as well and but also just the work directly with students has has been most gratifying as well. So just just a great opportunity to to do something I love for a very long time.

Vicki Nelson:

It’s the students that keep us all coming back, isn’t it?

Patrick O’Connor:

Yeah, yeah,

Lynn Abrahams: 5:46

I was just going to say that that is something that we all three have in common, you know, committed to helping students, you know, in their way. You know I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit or give us a little overview of basically what school you know counselors do,? , Sort of the different areas where you work with students.

Patrick O’Connor: 6:08

Yeah, sure. So when you ask what a high school counselor does, it’s basically three things. The first piece, which has gotten much more attention, I would say, in a post-COVID era, is social and emotional growth. We find that we have a lot of students coming back from COVID not quite sure what to make of school and not quite sure what to make of society in general, and so they end up with some growth and self-esteem issues that need to be tended to and that, right now, is probably the largest component of a school counselor’s caseload. So the social-emotional growth, academic progress within the school itself, making sure that the student is taking good courses and making the most of all of the learning opportunities in school, and then finally, post-secondary planning, not just college but also career, and hopefully counselors are going to be able to do both of those at the same time.

Patrick O’Connor: 7:08

This may surprise some of your listeners, because very often when I ask parents what they think school counselors do, their answer is change schedules. And while that’s certainly what we do at the high school level, that’s only a small part of what we do and, in theory, it’s not really something we’re supposed to do, but we somehow end up doing it anyway. But, as we all know, as educators we sometimes end up doing things that the job description doesn’t quite fulfill. So, but those are the three big topics of what school counselors are there for, for students and families are there for students and families.

Lynn Abrahams: 7:44

And what is the training for this job? Are you licensed? Are you certified? How do people become high school counselors?

Patrick O’Connor: 7:54

Yeah, that’s a great question. It does vary greatly from state to state, and so in Michigan, actually, you can either be a certified school counselor or a licensed school counselor, and the basic difference in Michigan is that it depends on whether you were a teacher or not before you became a school counselor.

Patrick O’Connor: 8:13

Many people are surprised to find that you do not have to have a teaching background to be a school counselor in some states, but that’s simply because right now we do not have an abundance of school counselors out there, and so, in order to make sure that we have as many people out there who are caring about kids in thoughtful ways, there are states that will allow counselors to become school counselors without a teaching background at all. So licensure and certification are sort of a state by state issue. Ninety nine percent of us will end up at some kind of graduate school counselor training program, and almost all of those will include an internship, mentorship where you’ll be involved, working under the tutelage of an experienced school counselor for anywhere from 150 to 600 hours before you can become a school counselor on your own.

Vicki Nelson: 9:10

So you mentioned there is not an overabundance of school counselors, and we’ve certainly, you know, I’ve been hearing that for a long time and I’m wondering you know how you do it all. You talk about academic issues and social-emotional issues and you know college counseling and career counseling. Is there an average load for a high school counselor? I’m sure it varies, but in general, how many students often are counselors responsible for?

Patrick O’Connor: 9:43

Yeah, well, you know, in terms of again, when you look at sort of a national number, that number is, I believe, somewhere in the neighborhood of about 450 students to one.

Patrick O’Connor: 9:55

Now here in Michigan we have actually taken great strides to be proud of the fact that we’re finally under 600 students.

Patrick O’Connor: 10:04

Michigan, our ratio was actually the second highest in the country and I believe it actually still is second to only Arizona.

Patrick O’Connor: 10:13

And just as a point of reference, when I started in the field 8 million years ago, the American School Counselor Association said you know, in a perfect world, one counselor can meet the needs of 250 students and there are maybe about six states that have that ratio. The rest are higher and in some cases much higher. And the way that it all gets done basically is we have to make some decisions. Counselors are trained in many ways to do group presentations to try and meet the needs of students to the best of their ability when they can do that, but also receive significant training to meet individual needs and also create group programs for students. And then of course, have a series of evening programs and communication tools where they reach out to parents to help parents understand what the school counselor does and even provide some parenting help with their students so in many cases when the time is tough or tight, what they best try and do is put together group presentations and small group programs to meet those needs.

Vicki Nelson: 11:34

Those numbers are just staggering to me. Yeah, those numbers.

Patrick O’Connor: 11:41

Yeah, at one point I actually did the math and you know, the benefit of being a classroom teacher is that you get to see every student every day and at the time that I did the math, in Michigan, in order to do that, for a school counselor to see every student on their caseload, they’d get to spend 13 seconds with each student.

Patrick O’Connor: 12:02

So it is a bit of a challenge. The good news is that in most cases, school counselors are made aware of the challenges that they face as part of their training, so they don’t walk into the building thinking they’re going to have 15 minutes with every kid every week. So we do know what we’re up against and we’re meeting the challenges best we can.

Vicki Nelson: 12:30

Yeah, anyway, God bless counselors. It’s amazing. So, with that many students and that little time with students, which I’m sure is not evenly distributed because some students are needier than others, it would seem as though there might be some things that, from the student’s perspective, that a student could do or should not do to take advantage of the time that they do have with the counselor. So would you have any advice for students in terms of if you want to make the most of what you can do with your counselor here, these things would help.

Patrick O’Connor: 13:18

Sure, absolutely. Well, and actually, this being close to the start of the school year, and actually this being close to the start of the school year, my advice would be to make sure that you read that first communication that comes out from your school counselor. That first piece in the fall tends to be very brief, because we know that parents and students are inundated with all kinds of stuff at the start of the school year. But that communication tool basically explains two things, the services that the counselor provides and the best way to communicate with the counselor. And you know, counselors are human, like everybody else. Some prefer emails, some prefer texting, some prefer phone calls, but they will, that introductory newsletter or communication will often just say you know, if you need help or if you want you know, here’s the best way to do that. And then they communicate that also to the students through the schools as well, through their homerooms, to let them know.

And most experienced counselors have a system where students who need to see them can find some way to sign up, either by asking a secretary if they have a counseling secretary or there’s a website, or it may be as basic as a clipboard and sign in sheet in the actual counseling office.

Vicki Nelson:

Yeah, it’s such good training for students just to read the emails that they get. Because we’re on the college level, we’re fighting that all the time. You know, when you get something from the college, read the email from the college, read the assignment from the professor. So I’m glad you’re working at trying to encourage them to do that in high school and form those habits.

Patrick O’Connor: 15:07

Yeah, and it can be a bit of a challenge because you know, young people are so much further ahead of the rest of us and you know they’re texting their friends, they’re instant messaging their friends. And you know, I once had a student. I used to send an email with a weekly college newsletter to students and I had a student come in and say well, you know, Dr O’Connor, this is a real nice email, but it’s a little long. Could you just text me how to get into college? And I said you know, if I could actually put how to get into college into a text, I don’t think I’d be working here. So we do. You know, it is one of those things where we have to teach the students to slow down a little bit, but on the other hand, I don’t know that that’s such a bad thing either. So I think the truth is someplace in the middle.

Lynn Abrahams: 15:57

You know I work with a lot of students who have had challenges in high school and parents who are really worried about them. You know what is the role that you play with parents and what is a good way for parents to support their, their kids. You know, at this stage,

Patrick O’Connor: 16:35

Yeah, well it’s. You know, the real challenge for all students in high school is to learn how to take advantage of their support team while at the same time sort of leading the drive. And you know, when I talk to college admissions officers and when I talk to veteran school counselors, they say you know, the key to putting together an effective strategy for each student is to let the student drive the bus, let the student take the lead to the extent they possibly can. Now, that’s going to be very different from student to student. But on the other hand, I would also say I think we want to make sure not to underestimate our students.

Patrick O’Connor: 17:21

You know, a lot of times counselors very much care about kids and certainly there are students who have had challenges in life where nurturing is the call for the day. But at the same time, four years from the start of their high school experience, these students are going to be out on their own and they’re going to need a skill set that that leads to self-advocacy, and so I think if you keep that in mind and keep that in front of the parents, the best way to do that for each individual student really kind of comes up all by itself and that path is pretty easily discerned. And I should say you know, if there are parents who are not certain what to do about that, feel free to call the counselor. You may not get a call back that day, because it’s not a fire that needs to be put out right away and we do need to do some triage once in a while because of our high caseloads. But they’ll get back with you and give you some information about what you may need or how you can best support your child.

Lynn Abrahams: 18:15

That sounds wonderful.

Vicki Nelson: 18:17

Yeah, yeah, and I’m thinking a little bit now specifically about the college admissions process, which takes over so much of, high school years, and especially with the kind of numbers that you’re talking about in terms of one counselor for many, many students, not all of whom are going to college. But what should a student and their parents expect from the college counselor, the school counselor, in terms of the college admissions process, and what should they be taking their own initiative on?

Patrick O’Connor: 19:07

Well, I think, you know, the question I’m asked most often is you know, what’s the key to being college ready? And the answer there is the key to being college ready is to make the most out of high school and and and so what school counselors will do is develop what’s called a college counseling curriculum. And, just like we have an English curriculum, a social studies curriculum, there is a counseling curriculum. And the curriculum has lesson plans and information and, unlike the social studies curriculum, where it’s a question of perhaps memorizing a lot of dates and facts as part of that, this is really skill acquisition. This is about it is some information about different kinds of colleges, different kinds of careers, but it’s also about having the skills to be a successful college student. So, demonstrating curiosity, demonstrating initiative, demonstrating creativity, being able to do things in an organized and prompt way, these are the kinds of things that become part of the college counseling curriculum.

Patrick O’Connor: 20:22

So most parents and students can count on some kind of college counseling curriculum to exist at their school. In some cases it’s a little more developed than it is at other schools but school counselors generally prepare a series of activities for students to get them first aware of what college is, and then second the options that would best match their goals in college, and that system is pretty well set up by veteran counselors. I would say, however and this is a point of contention, this is sort of a bone of contention with me, that in their preparation for their training there are very few graduate programs in school counseling that actually have a course in teaching counselors how to do college counseling. They will often give them a few hours of instruction as part of a careers unit, but many counselors have said that if they had it to do all over again, the one thing they wish they had more training of in graduate school was how to help kids make good college decisions.

Vicki Nelson: 21:32

Wow, I want to follow up on that a little bit and jump ahead something I was going to ask you a little later, but because you’re talking about the curriculum, I think I saw on your website that you have a curriculum that’s free to colleges to excuse me, to high schools to use as a college curriculum and I’m wondering, I mean you say many counselors would create a curriculum or perhaps use your curriculum. Is that something, if a school does not have that, that parents should be advocating for and should be looking? I mean, you don’t get to choose your high school most of the time but should they be advocating to try to have something like that? And does it help level the playing field perhaps for students who may be first-generation students to go to college?

Patrick O’Connor: 22:38

Yes, absolutely, and I’m really glad you raised the issue of first-generation students. In general, I am convinced that in many cases the efforts to try and get students to think about college sometimes begin a little bit too early and are a little too specific. You know, my best advice for ninth and tenth grade college students is that for at least the first year and a half of high school they should just make the most of being a high school student. You know it keeps, You know, I’ve had jobs in schools where students would come in in ninth grade and say what should my college essay be about? And you know, and the answer is it should be about the life you’re going to build for yourself in the next three and a half years, go away. And so they in turn start to understand what all that means. But for first generation the challenge there is that they are not bringing with them the knowledge of the opportunities for college with them, in the same way that other students are, and just as important.

Patrick O’Connor: 23:43

It’s also the case that neither are their parents, and in some cases the parents may actually have a bias against college that would prevent their child from realizing their full potential, their child from realizing their full potential. So as parents find out about this college piece yes, it would, you know it’s certainly they can ask the college counselor what do you do for college? And the counselor should have an answer. But for those districts or schools where the first, these would be kids who are the first in their family to go to college. That conversation needs to happen a lot sooner. There is data or research to suggest that it should actually start as soon as fifth or sixth grade, and so and again, that’s not here’s you know. Here’s everything you need to know about this college, but more about here’s the opportunity the college provides and that that curriculum needs to not only address it with the student, but needs to address it with the parents as well.

Vicki Nelson: 24:44

So would that be a multi-year curriculum?  Not a All right, it’s junior year, let’s throw in this curriculum too.

Patrick O’Connor: 24:54

No, absolutely. Yeah, there are, even though I just said that you know, for me ninth and tenth grade should be sort of devoid of that. There are some things that counselors can emphasize. So, yes, it would be a multi-year curriculum and, again, especially with first gens, that would expand well into middle school and perhaps even late elementary school as well.

Vicki Nelson: 25:19

So it’s just in those early years. I’m trying to think about the balance. I mean, I’m 100% with you in terms of ninth and 10th grade, just don’t be focused on college yet. But how is that balance between exposing and having you think about college and think about the options that may be out there, while still saying don’t think about college, if that makes sense?

Patrick O’Connor: 25:48

Yep, well, and certainly that is a careful balance and very often the best way that those are addressed are really with group presentations and they often include not only college but career opportunities as well. And you know there will be counselors who will go into, say, the ninth grade English courses with a 20-minute presentation on college and career options, that really just sort of plant some seeds that don’t necessarily have to give uh, students any specific homework, but just kind of say you know, here’s what’s out there and here are some things to think about, and and, uh, then just sort of, let you know, leave it at that. So, uh, these things do tend to be sort of uh, open-minded, but but. But the most effective thing they can do is is go into those classrooms and talk about what are really sort of the three key elements of successful college preparation, which would be to take the most challenging courses they can take and do well on them, to take full advantage of the learning opportunities outside the classroom.

Patrick O’Connor: 27:00

So that would be extracurricular activities and community service. And while many colleges do not specifically require or expect students to engage in community service, my experience as a school counselor shows that in order for students to really get a better understanding of the world around them, they need to be involved in the world around them, and for me the best way to do that is community service. So when counselors address those three issues, they are in essence doing some college preparation, because the student who successfully does all three of those in ninth and 10th grade, when the conversation turns to college in the fall, in the spring of the junior year, that student’s going to be ready with a perspective and an academic portfolio that will maximize their college opportunities.

Lynn Abrahams: 28:20

You know, I’m curious about sort of another group of students, and those are the students who end up going to college because their parents tell them that have to go to college. I work with a lot of students who, when I ask them, “why are you here,” they don’t know. And maybe it wasn’t the best choice to go right from high school to college. Do you see that situation and how do you deal with that If there’s a difference between what parents want and what the student wants?

Patrick O’Connor: 28:42

Yeah, and in many cases, Lynn, it’s partially a question of the parents wanting the kid to go to college, and very often it’s also the parents wanting the student to go to a particular college, and that’s something I’ve seen more of than the whole notion of college in general. By and large, students who want to go to college, by the time they’re ready to make that commitment, you know most of them realize that at the core they’re looking at four more years of homework, and so students who want to go to college are like, okay, well, I know what I’m signing up for, let’s go. But yeah, there are some times where the parents and the students don’t have their goals aligned and your best bet is to try and pull back and have a conversation about just what that goal is and the best way to achieve it. And you know I have really spent most of my career focused on college counseling. But I will be the first to say that I don’t think every student needs to go to college, and certainly not every student needs to go to college right away.

Patrick O’Connor: 29:46

I teach political science at Oakland Community College in addition to my work as a school counselor, and I can very easily sort out the students who spent a few years away from college or from school, from the students who have just sort of automatically signed up for community college because they think it’s the right thing to do and they treat it like grade 13. And then that’s sort of a recipe for disaster, as I think we have all probably seen, unfortunately, seen unfortunately. So I think you know when it’s clear that there is a concern, the challenge, I think, is that the student sometimes doesn’t feel like they could raise this issue with the counselor, and so you really have to be very sensitive to the counselor or to the student, and if they’re not really jumping in with great enthusiasm about the college discussion, it could be that that there are some other issues underlying that need to be discussed. It could be they don’t think they’re ready. It could be they’re worried they’re going to be rejected from their top choice. There are all kinds of possibilities out there.

Lynn Abrahams: 30:53

Well, this is a complicated choice. You know it’s. You know we see it’s a difficult choice to make. You know what to do right after high school. Any advice you could give parents on how to get those conversations going?

Patrick O’Connor: 31:21

Well. You know, I think what you know, one of the things that parents can certainly consider is the simple task of visiting a college campus. That’s one of that’s really one of the things that I think is really underestimated in terms of the effect of the powerful nature of a tool. I had a student once who got out. Once they got out of college they were an okay student, you know. They were doing B plus work, and then at the time, my advice to my families was that in January of the 10th grade year, after final exam or after midterm exams, go visit a couple of college campuses, and they don’t have to be places you’re necessarily interested in. The goal here is to just show the student what college is all about and let them see it firsthand.

Patrick O’Connor: 32:11

Well, with this particular student they came back and they were, they were a changed person because they found a place that was ideal and they said it was wonderful.

Patrick O’Connor: 32:22

And I had to have a brief but difficult conversation that said well, OK, but you need to know this particular school that you have fallen in love with is going to expect a little more from you than what you’re currently delivering, and that student made the Dean’s list for the remaining two and a half years of their time at school, , because high school all of a sudden had a reason to be there.

Patrick O’Connor: 32:44

And I guess, if I could for just a second, I know that there are lots of students out there that are that are struggling to find purpose in high school right now, in part because of COVID and part for all kinds of reasons. My best advice to those students and to the parents that are nurturing those students along, is show them the big picture. Show them that there’s more to life than high school. High school is a wonderful thing, to be sure, and it has lots of wonderful opportunities. High school is a wonderful thing, to be sure, and it has lots of wonderful opportunities. But life is not limited to high school, and for many students who are lost and trying to find their way, they need to see what the bigger picture is about, and once they see the bigger picture, they’ll be able to make a connection between it and high school in a meaningful way.

Vicki Nelson: 33:34

And is that where some of the community service opportunities can play?

Patrick O’Connor: 33:40

Yes, yes, absolutely. And I would also add that, at least in my opinion, the best way to get a student started with that is to treat it as a family activity. You know, soup kitchens don’t just need 14-year-olds In fact, they could probably use a few less of them. But even better would be if they had the 14 year olds along with mom and dad. So I would encourage families looking. You know, very often we have students who are looking to be independent in high school for the first time in their lives and parents are like well, how can we make a connection? Community service is a great way to do that, and you don’t necessarily have to look past your own community. You don’t have to spend $6,000 to send them to Malaysia to go build toilets. You know the YWCA, the YMCA, your local church, synagogue, place of worship. There’s ample need for community service in your community and that’s what we’re really talking about.

Lynn Abrahams: 34:39

Life experience. Yeah, life, life experience.

Vicki Nelson: 34:41

Yeah.

Patrick O’Connor: 34:41

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Vicki Nelson: 34:44

You know, I’m hearing you talk about things that parents can do and, and certainly parents are partners in this admission process, assuming the student is going to college, and even if they’re not, in discovering that they’re not, that college is not the path. And I’m wondering, in terms of the work that counselors do, is there an ideal parent-partner, what’s kind of the ideal role for the parent to play? You have the student, you have the counselor, you have the parent. It’s sort of a tripod in a sense, and I’m wondering what is the role of parents?

Patrick O’Connor: 35:33

Well, I guess I would say parents really sort of have three functions. First, I would say they want to definitely make sure that they are reviewing the communications that come from the school counselor. Most school counselors have developed, or will develop in their first couple of years, a series of newsletters or emails or evening presentations designed to keep parents in the loop, because they know the invaluable role that parents play. And so those communication tools are almost always designed not to just simply say you know, the PSAT is going to be given next week, but rather here’s where your child is in their life and here’s what they should be thinking about. And so there really is sort of a developmental component to this, to these communication tools. So make sure you read those. Number two, obviously if you see anything in terms of your child’s behavior that’s unusual or concerning, you want to communicate that to the counselor in the way that they best can, that they best possibly can. And again, most counselors in their tools will say here’s how to get a hold of me if you need to, and so sort of be the person to do that. And then, third, they really need to be the partner when it comes time for things like college visits, when it comes time to talk about how to pay for college, when it comes time to ultimately apply to college.

Patrick O’Connor: 37:06

There’s something I talk about in college in Is Yours 3. That’s called the 20-minute meeting and that’s where, starting in the second semester of junior year, parents and students sit down for 20 minutes every week and talk about where the student is with college. And that’s kind of the best of all worlds because, again, the student is looking for some independence here and basically wants the parents to leave them alone. You know, and I experienced this with my own children where I was working at the school, where I was their college counselor, and I’m here to tell you I saw neither one of them for any college counseling work in all my time, but that was you know. But so they want their independence and they need their independence.

Patrick O’Connor: 37:54

But the parents also need to know what’s going on. So the happy compromise is set a time, everybody addresses their college concerns at that point and then that’s the end of it. We don’t talk about college in the car, we don’t talk about college at the dinner table, we just do college in 20 minutes. Everybody has their information and their assignments and everybody’s not going to kill each other, so the student will actually get to college. So it’s kind of a win all around. So you know, read the information, call if you see something unusual going on with your child and then just make sure that you implement your part of the team. That’s necessary to make an effective transition.

Vicki Nelson: 38:36

I think that that 20 minute meeting is brilliant because, you know, just making it into a meeting and not having it take over your entire life is really, you know, gives it a whole different approach. That’s great.

Patrick O’Connor: 38:51

Yeah, and and you know it’s again as we talked about at the top of the hour you know we all love kids, and we love kids in part because they get so excited about their futures and they should, because in many cases they are truly limitless and at the same time, we also need to make sure that they’re not so busy looking into the future, that they’re not making the most of senior year and the opportunities that await them, because the experiences they have senior year will again help set prepare them for a very successful transition to college as well, and that’s an important factor to consider.

Lynn Abrahams: 39:30

You know what are your thoughts about students who have private college counselors. Do you think some students benefit from that, or some or it’s? Do you think it’s necessary or not? Or you know there are. What are your thoughts about that?

Patrick O’Connor: 39:49

Yeah, well, you know, I, I certainly I would say that, um, I, I know, uh, I have done private college counseling work and I have some wonderful colleagues who are very supportive as private college counselors for students who feel like they may need some additional support that the school counselor just doesn’t have time to provide. And as a school counselor it’s. It’s a little humbling because you’d like to think that you’re you’re the person that they can count on for every that every student can count on, for everything. But, as is often the case in life, it’s not so much how I feel about it, it’s how the student feels about it. And if the student is convinced that they need a little bit of extra nurturing, I think that’s that’s completely appropriate.

Patrick O’Connor: 40:43

For, for parents who are thinking about making that commitment, I would just say make sure that you look very closely at the services that are provided and be careful, because it can get expensive in a hurry. In fact, about three or four years ago, the average cost of an independent college counselor was $4,000. So you know, if you’re going to make that kind of commitment I think you want to make sure you know exactly what you’re getting, and then you also need to make sure that there’s a good understanding as to what the school counselor will do and won’t do in those cases. There are often school districts that have policies about when and how school counselors can reach out to independent counselors, and sometimes it’s not. It’s not a terribly generous program, but sometimes there are school districts that say, look, if you want to go that route, that’s fine, but our counselors have other stuff to do, and so we’re going to work with the kids who need it, and your kid, obviously, is getting their need met someplace else. So that’s an important factor as well.

Lynn Abrahams: 41:42

Wow, you do really important work. I have to say this is really important stuff. Way to go.

Patrick O’Connor: 41:52

Well, you know, and what’s great is, you know, again, as we talked about at the top of the hour, kids are just great. You know, I had a kid, a student, who came in and we were having a chat, and when I talk to students about college, I never ask them where they want to go to college, because that’s a closed-ended question. You get a list and that’s just not terribly interesting. What you try and do is get a sense as to why they want to go to college, but you can’t tell them. You can’t ask them that either, because they’ve never thought about it that way. So so the compromise I came to in my work with kids was I said well, okay, so what’s next? And what’s what’s next could be, I want to go to these colleges.

Patrick O’Connor: 42:37

But the real interesting kids always said something else, you know. And, and so I had this one student who said, well, I want to study Tigers. And I said, well, great, because we have an alumni from the school who’s in charge of the public relations office for the Detroit Tigers, that’s our baseball team here in Michigan. And and I said we can set you up with an internship. And he looked at me and he said yeah, I’m not talking about those kinds of tigers. This is a kid who wanted to work with, like you know, the real deal.

Patrick O’Connor: 43:11

And I was like, wow, um, so you know the the, the things that they come up with in terms of where they want to go and what they want to do are just fascinating and inspiring in many respects.

Vicki Nelson: 43:24

You know, I would hope that a lot of counselors would ask that kind of questioning that get those kind of creative answers. We probably should talk about some things besides just the college counseling but it feels. . .

but I want to ask a couple more about that before we get on to other things, and one really has to do with. So often students do come with a list. You know, that’s where they start. I want to go to this school or this school or this school, and I have two questions sort of about that, and one because I always take one question and really make it five questions. And one is how do you get some students to think more broadly than just? You know? These are the top colleges that everybody hears about, everybody recognizes the names, but there are hundreds of great schools out there. So that’s one. How do you get them to think more broadly, students and parents? And the second is what do you do when you have students and parents who have differing ideas of where they want? You know where they want their student to go or where the student wants to go?

Patrick O’Connor: 44:45

Yeah, that’s a great question, Vicki. Part of the answer is what I call sort of, you know, preemptive strike in terms of building the list. What many counselors will do as part of their college counseling curriculum is, towards the end of the sophomore year, they’ll bring the students into the computer center at their school and have the students go through a college search. And these college searches you can do it yourself, folks, you know. If parents are like well, where do I do this? There’s a really nice one on College Board. The College Board website has a very nice college search, and then there are other places that also have them.

Patrick O’Connor: 45:38

This is a, this is a an interest sort of an interest inventory for college. It’s like well, where do you want, you know, do you want to go to in a particular state? What size are you looking for? What do you want to major in? Do you want to participate in athletics? Does it? Do you have to be on campus? Is it four year? Is it two year?

Patrick O’Connor: 45:52

There’s about maybe eight or nine questions that the student can then answer based on their own interests. and then the program will say, okay, well, based on what you’ve just responded to, here are some colleges you should look into, and then the counselor will actually ask the student to print that out, and the counselor will put it in the student’s file so that when they start talking about colleges they’ll say well, okay, when you did a college search, these are also the schools that came up. And so the idea here is to try and sort of shape the list before the list shapes you and and that’s that’s can be part of it. In the event that they get a list. For me, the question is always what I say is this is great, tell me more about how you develop this. And my goal is to get back to and every counselor’s goal is to get back to the qualities of the learning experience.

Patrick O’Connor: 46:48

What are the qualities that are at that college? Because you know even the brightest kid in your school, you know it Harvard can’t take the brightest kid in every high school in the United States. They just don’t have room, and so the question isn’t whether they could do the work at Harvard. They can. The question is what happens if Harvard doesn’t take you because they run out of room, which, by the way, is Harvard’s problem, not yours, and that’s that I underline in bold. You know what’s the number one reason Harvard turns down a kid? It’s because they run out of room. It has nothing to do with the student. And in fact somebody at Harvard once an admissions officer at Harvard once said, if every kid we admitted said no and we had to take the next group of kids, they’d be just as good.

Patrick O’Connor: 47:40

So for me the question is okay in the event that Harvard runs out of room where are we going to go that has the qualities you’re looking for in a Harvard, in a Yale, in a Princeton, and that’s where we can begin to expand the list to include colleges where your chances of getting admitted numerically are much better. And so you know. Basically, you use the list as your friend and you don’t say, well, you can’t get in there because you don’t know that, but instead you use it as an opportunity for growth and discussion.

Vicki Nelson: 48:12

So I’m just trying to steer in in in other. It’s just a general question. And then I want to hear a little bit more about College Is Yours and and your book. But, um, you, you work with today’s students all the time, uh, and, and students today are a little different than they were pre-COVID and were a few years ago. I mean, their students are constantly changing. What do you see as the greatest strengths and maybe the greatest challenges for today’s high school students?

Patrick O’Connor: 48:57

Oh gosh, that’s a great question.

Vicki Nelson: 49:00

Sorry.

Patrick O’Connor: 49:03

Well, you know, I think certainly you know what has been the case for years is still the case today in that the students are technologically way past all of us.

Patrick O’Connor: 49:18

I mean, these students have an understanding about technological issues that are really just rather astounding. And to me that’s a real plus, because you know, when I first started in the profession, lo, those many years ago, if a student wanted to apply to eight different colleges, they had to fill out eight different forms. Well, now, thanks to technology, they can actually fill out 75% of one application and send it to those eight schools, and then the schools will say, oh, that’s great, you’re three quarters of the way here. Now, you just got to write an essay about this, right. So the students really take advantage of that immensely. They are socially very savvy. Social media has made them very savvy, and they are able to explore colleges on social media in ways I don’t know that I could, quite honestly. So I think that’s an advantage.

Patrick O’Connor: 50:18

I think the downside is that because so many of them are so eager to grow up and apply to college, they sometimes go through the process without really giving it full consideration as to what they’re doing and why they want to do what they do, and because there are so many colleges that are so popular that students are now applying in September of the senior year. You know, they used to apply to those schools in January of the senior year, which gave me four more months to have conversations with them about what are we looking for, what’s the goal? And those four months are gone now. So and so to me, that’s probably the biggest challenge.

Vicki Nelson: 51:05

So tell us a little bit more about so you have the book, College Is Yours 3. There must be a one and two.

Patrick O’Connor: 51:14

Yes.

Vicki Nelson: 51:16

And the work that you do in College is Yours, your organization.

Patrick O’Connor: 51:23

Yeah, basically, the College is Yours 3, I basically, believe it or not, I actually didn’t write it for students, I actually wrote it for, for, for counselors, because I what I really wanted to do was put every uh, I took every question that students asked that were sort of nuts and bolts, basic questions, and and answered them and and and. Each quote unquote chapter is about 600 words. So you know, given the short attention spans that our students sometimes, that social media sometimes gives our students, the whole goal is that they can, if they want to know what they should do in terms of a college essay, they can pull up the chapter on college essays, spend 90 seconds reading the chapter and saying, okay, got it, and then go apply it. And so the whole idea is, if they have College Is Yours 3 at their side, they can use that for the initial ground rules of applying to college and then, when they have more specific questions, that’s when they can go to their counselor.

Patrick O’Connor: 52:32

So in some ways, college Is Yours is designed for students who have overworked counselors, but it’s also designed to prevent counselors from being overworked so that they don’t have to give the ground rules to 900 kids, but instead I do that for them. And then the student then approaches and says well, okay, I read the thing about essays. Here’s my first draft. What do you think? That kind of thing, and so that’s really what the book is all about.

Vicki Nelson: 53:05

And so if that sounds like a good idea to parents and you know I’d like to give this to my student how can they find it on your website? How do they get a hold of that book?

Patrick O’Connor: 53:21

Yeah, actually it’s on Amazon, okay and there. And then there is actually for parents who are real eager beavers and want to get a group together. There’s actually a group discount for 10 or more at outskirtspress.com and if folks want to find out about that, they can obviously email me at collegesyoursatcomcast.net. I’d be happy to talk about that. But, yeah, it’s on Amazon and it’ll get to you tomorrow, so it’s just right there.

Vicki Nelson: 53:53

We will put all of those contacts in the show notes.

Lynn Abrahams: 53:59

It’ll be in the show notes, that’d be great.

Vicki Nelson: 54:01

So, yeah, the last two more, and then we really do have to quit. We get going. We could keep going, going, going. So is there any kind of last word that you would give to parents in terms of just this whole process, in terms of everything that counselors do, the social, emotional, the academic, the college and career search Bottom line? What would you like to say to parents?

Patrick O’Connor: 54:33

Well, I think you know, I think, when I talk to school counselors about the role that parents play, again, the key there is everybody wants a thoughtful, engaged, independent child at the end of this who’s ready to take the world on on their own. And so I think, if you keep that uppermost in mind, that’s key. Now. That’s not always easy and there will be times where you’re going to want to, you know, walk into the counselor’s office without an appointment and insist that whatever’s wrong with your child gets fixed right now, because you’re their parent and advocating for them is your job. But and certainly there are times that merit that. But I would just say you know, be as thoughtful as you can Understand that many counselors are looking at, as you can Understand that many counselors are looking at remarkable caseloads and remarkable challenges to meet those caseloads. And so, you know, do what you can to be thoughtful and respectful of the counselor’s time while still advocating for your child. And if you keep that uppermost in mind, I think everybody ends up winning.

Vicki Nelson: 55:48

Great, great message, yeah. And then the last thing, because we’re readers and we always sort of like to.

Lynn Abrahams: 55:55

That was going to be my last.

Vicki Nelson: 55:56

Yep Go ahead. Lynn ask the question.

Lynn Abrahams: 55:57

Well, just, we are readers and so, in addition to the books that you have written, we want to know if you can recommend any other books for parents that would be helpful to them at this point.

Patrick O’Connor: 56:12

Oh, gosh Boy, yeah, that’s a great question.

Patrick O’Connor: 56:16

Well, I would say that you know, certainly in terms of the process, there’s a fellow out there by the name of Rick Clark, who is the director of admissions at Georgia Tech, and Rick has does some very thoughtful blog work, but also has written a mighty fine college guide as well, and so parents might want to take a look at that, I think would be very important.

Patrick O’Connor: 56:49

And then you know, in terms of sort of a more general step and you know this is sometimes a reference that parents don’t appreciate but there was a fellow a long time ago who wrote a book called Guiding the Gifted Child, and, and as I read the book, I looked at it and said, well, I don’t understand why this guy is talking about gifted kids, because his advice works for everybody, and, and so his name was James Webb, a real thoughtful guy. That book is no longer in print, so you probably have to find it in your library. but if you find it, it really provides a nice narrative for how to guide your kids through the growth process.

Lynn Abrahams: 57:39

Great, we’re going to post these also in the show notes.

Patrick O’Connor: 57:42

Yeah, and then also for folks who are looking for a real quick summary of the college selection process, I’ll send you an email. I wrote a column on High School Counselor Week, called Applying to College, in 600 Words or Less, and it’s sort of a comprehensive overview of the college selection process. So I’ll shoot that over to you, and if you could post that, I think that folks would be interested in that as well.

Vicki Nelson: 58:09

Great. We always like to leave people with some references and some next steps. So, oh my goodness, so much good information from a world. You know we talk a lot about college and that’s our world as college professors, but it’s been a while since I even had a child of my own in high school and I know things have changed. So this is such valuable information in terms of what happens before they get to college. So, Patrick O’Connor, thank you so much for sharing so much information, and we’re going to put College is Yours in the show notes. Hopefully some people will reach out, as well as your contact information. So thanks so much for taking time to talk with us today.

Patrick O’Connor: 59:03

Great. Lynn and Vicki, thanks again for the opportunity and thank you for all the work you’re doing. I’m sure that parents are really appreciating all the information you’re giving them on a regular basis, so keep up the good work.

Vicki Nelson: 59:14

We all need all the help we can get.

Patrick O’Connor:

Absolutely

Vicki Nelson:

Thanks so much.

Patrick O’Connor: 59:19

Yeah, take care.

Vicki Nelson: 59:20

Bye-bye.